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I did not move anything. All of those teams had a #1 C and D. My point is the cost of acquiring one or both of those pieces is far less when drafting in the top five. You can get them outside of the top 5 but the percentages are against that.
Here’s what you initially wrote. You’re seriously backpedaling:
“The real issue is that they picked in the top 5 once in the last seven drafts. Picking once in the top five in 7 drafts is not going to get you the players you need to win a Stanley Cup. Even when you factor in the gift that Michkov turned out to be. Having a deep team is a good thing. I think they will get there on that front. If you are fine with that then so be it. I am a firm believer that you need top level talent at C and D to win in this league.”
The draft is not the only way to get a top #1 Dman or #1 center. FLA did get that through the draft but they built most of the rest of the team through trades and free agency.
Getting top level players via UFA requires those players to be available first and foremost. That is pretty rare. You also need to have cap space which the Flyers never seem to have. That situation looks better going into next year but let’s see what they do with it and if any of those types of players are available. Again low probability of that.
The Flyers had some cap space this off season and will have more next season. Top players do move through UFA.
Getting top level players via trade requires that you have top assets to move. The Flyers really do not have any top level assets they can afford to move at this point.
We agree on that. Trade talk and the Flyers is a fool’s errand. Briere did pull a rabbit out of a hat with Zegras. Trades remain tricky.
The Flyers rarely pick in the top five. So the chances of landing top level players is lower. They also are not acquiring desirable assets to include in trade for top level players. They never have cap space to get top level players via UFA and when/if they do those players are rarely available. The Flyers have not utilized RFA recently either. So how are they getting top level players? Not good (TK, Sanheim) players. Top level (MacKinnon, Makar) players. Having a bunch of middle six players is great if you have legitimate top line players. Having a bunch of middle six players and forcing five of them to play above their capabilities is not.
Konecny and Sanheim are both excellent players. You don’t get chosen to the Canadian national team by being not good. The issue the Flyers have is building around the spotty good they do have.
Great job moving goalposts!
Boston has two top five picks (Kessell, Seguin) in the five drafts leading up to the 2011 cup. They also traded away the #1 overall from 1997 in Joe Thornton.
Kessell and Thornton were both gone when they won their cup. Seguin was a depth player.
Kings had a top five (Doughty, Schenn, Hickey) pick three years in a row.
Schenn was gone when LA won their Cups. Hickey was a bust.
Pens had a top five (Crosby, Malone, Malkin, Staal and Fleury) pick five years in a row including two first overalls.
None of them are defensemen.
Caps had a top five (Ovi, Backstrom, Alzner) 3 out of 4 years.
Alzner was gone when the Caps won the Cup.
Stamkos was a center his whole career with Tampa and led them to multiple Stanley Cups
Stamkos was playing wing for Tampa when they won their cups. Do some research.
LVK: Might want to review that roster again. That team has had multiple top five picks on the roster and on the team that won the cup.
THIS JUST IN: They traded for them! This is not complicated. It’s not the argument you initially made. Again, keep moving those goal posts when the myths you believe are disproved.
I did not move anything. All of those teams had a #1 C and D. My point is the cost of acquiring one or both of those pieces is far less when drafting in the top five. You can get them outside of the top 5 but the percentages are against that.
Getting top level players via UFA requires those players to be available first and foremost. That is pretty rare. You also need to have cap space which the Flyers never seem to have. That situation looks better going into next year but let’s see what they do with it and if any of those types of players are available. Again low probability of that.
Getting top level players via trade requires that you have top assets to move. The Flyers really do not have any top level assets they can afford to move at this point.
The Flyers rarely pick in the top five. So the chances of landing top level players is lower. They also are not acquiring desirable assets to include in trade for top level players. They never have cap space to get top level players via UFA and when/if they do those players are rarely available. The Flyers have not utilized RFA recently either. So how are they getting top level players? Not good (TK, Sanheim) players. Top level (MacKinnon, Makar) players.
Having a bunch of middle six players is great if you have legitimate top line players. Having a bunch of middle six players and forcing five of them to play above their capabilities is not.
Great job moving goalposts!
Boston has two top five picks (Kessell, Seguin) in the five drafts leading up to the 2011 cup. They also traded away the #1 overall from 1997 in Joe Thornton.
Kessell and Thornton were both gone when they won their cup. Seguin was a depth player.
Kings had a top five (Doughty, Schenn, Hickey) pick three years in a row.
Schenn was gone when LA won their Cups. Hickey was a bust.
Pens had a top five (Crosby, Malone, Malkin, Staal and Fleury) pick five years in a row including two first overalls.
None of them are defensemen.
Caps had a top five (Ovi, Backstrom, Alzner) 3 out of 4 years.
Alzner was gone when the Caps won the Cup.
Stamkos was a center his whole career with Tampa and led them to multiple Stanley Cups
Stamkos was playing wing for Tampa when they won their cups. Do some research.
LVK: Might want to review that roster again. That team has had multiple top five picks on the roster and on the team that won the cup.
THIS JUST IN: They traded for them! This is not complicated. It’s not the argument you initially made. Again, keep moving those goal posts when the myths you believe are disproved.
The real issue is that they picked in the top 5 once in the last seven drafts. Picking once in the top five in 7 drafts is not going to get you the players you need to win a Stanley Cup. Even when you factor in the gift that Michkov turned out to be. Having a deep team is a good thing. I think they will get there on that front. If you are fine with that then so be it. I am a firm believer that you need top level talent at C and D to win in this league.
I am willing to bet that both the Hawks and Sharks will be cup contenders a few years ahead of the Flyers. Hawks last made the playoffs in 2019-20 same as the Flyers. Sharks last made the playoffs in 2018-19. Both teams were more aggressive than the Flyers with the rebuild they executed.
When you look at Cup winners more closely, you’ll see while Top 5 picks have had impact here and there, it’s not the only way to build a Cup winner.
CHI: Kane and Toews. Their top Dman was a late 2nd round pick.
BOS: Nobody fits your criterion. Boston has two top five picks (Kessell, Seguin) in the five drafts leading up to the 2011 cup. They also traded away the #1 overall from 1997 in Joe Thornton.
LAK: Doughty fits. Kopitar was a mid-1st rounder. Kings had a top five (Doughty, Schenn, Hickey) pick three years in a row.
PGH: Crosby and Malkin obviously. Letang was a 3rd rounder. Pens had a top five (Crosby, Malone, Malkin, Staal and Fleury) pick five years in a row including two first overalls.
WSH: Ovi and Backstrom obviously. Nobody on D. Caps had a top five (Ovi, Backstrom, Alzner) 3 out of 4 years.
STL: Pietrangelo. Nobody fits up front. Even the Blues had two top five (Pietrangelo, Johnson) in a three year span. The Blues are a true outlier in my opinion.
TBL: Stamkos is a winger. Hedman fits. Tampa drafted Stamkos #1 and Hedman #2 in back to back years. Stamkos was a center his whole career with Tampa and led them to multiple Stanley Cups
COL: MacKinnon and Makar. The best fit to your claim.
LVK: Nobody fits. Might want to review that roster again. That team has had multiple top five picks on the roster and on the team that won the cup.
FLA: Barkov and Ekblad. Another good fit but FLA has so much more than those two guys.
So two good fits to your claim accounting for 3 Cups over the last 15 seasons. Hardly persuasive.
Updated for context. The Pens are the true tanking gold standard. Every team on this list had at least two top five picks in short span. Not all were identical paths for sure. But you cannot deny that top level talent isn’t required to win.
LVK: Nobody fits. Might want to check again. Same with the blues off top of my head
It is cute to see peeps still defend the flyers. Never gets old.
What have the flyers done to give you confidence they can get out of this decade plus hole they have dug?
Specifics please. Not sure discussing how Cup winners are actually built in the NHL, not in some fantasy hockey league is defending the Flyers, but OK.
Over the last couple seasons, they’ve taken steps towards building what wins in the NHL not what some Ice Capades fans think wins in the NHL.
They have taken no steps. Wheels keep spinning. They love fans like you. Go flyers
My bad all those big guys they just drafted will help fill the bottom 6 in 4 years
Still no potential #1 D or center on system. Can argue goalie as well
LVK: Nobody fits. Might want to check again. Same with the blues off top of my head
It is cute to see peeps still defend the flyers. Never gets old.
What have the flyers done to give you confidence they can get out of this decade plus hole they have dug?
Specifics please. Not sure discussing how Cup winners are actually built in the NHL, not in some fantasy hockey league is defending the Flyers, but OK.
Over the last couple seasons, they’ve taken steps towards building what wins in the NHL not what some Ice Capades fans think wins in the NHL.
LVK: Nobody fits. Might want to check again. Same with the blues off top of my head
It is cute to see peeps still defend the flyers. Never gets old.
What have the flyers done to give you confidence they can get out of this decade plus hole they have dug?
The real issue is that they picked in the top 5 once in the last seven drafts. Picking once in the top five in 7 drafts is not going to get you the players you need to win a Stanley Cup. Even when you factor in the gift that Michkov turned out to be. Having a deep team is a good thing. I think they will get there on that front. If you are fine with that then so be it. I am a firm believer that you need top level talent at C and D to win in this league.
I am willing to bet that both the Hawks and Sharks will be cup contenders a few years ahead of the Flyers. Hawks last made the playoffs in 2019-20 same as the Flyers. Sharks last made the playoffs in 2018-19. Both teams were more aggressive than the Flyers with the rebuild they executed.
When you look at Cup winners more closely, you’ll see while Top 5 picks have had impact here and there, it’s not the only way to build a Cup winner.
CHI: Kane and Toews. Their top Dman was a late 2nd round pick.
BOS: Nobody fits your criterion.
LAK: Doughty fits. Kopitar was a mid-1st rounder.
PGH: Crosby and Malkin obviously. Letang was a 3rd rounder.
WSH: Ovi and Backstrom obviously. Nobody on D.
STL: Pietrangelo. Nobody fits up front.
TBL: Stamkos is a winger. Hedman fits.
COL: MacKinnon and Makar. The best fit to your claim.
LVK: Nobody fits.
FLA: Barkov and Ekblad. Another good fit but FLA has so much more than those two guys.
So two good fits to your claim accounting for 3 Cups over the last 15 seasons. Hardly persuasive.
I agree that incremental improvement is what you need when you are ready to start to compete. The Flyers are not ready to compete in my opinion. Until the Flyers get the high end (specifically #1 C and #1 D) talent they need competing for a playoff spot is counterproductive in my opinion. Teams do not trade out of the top 5 and teams do not let #1 C’s and D’s go in trade or FA.
Martone seems like he could be a piece. Michkov is here. What else are you seeing that will be near the level of Michkov? Surely nothing at center or D that could even be considered in that class.
So the Flyers should just deliberately tank until 2030. Sounds like a plan. You seem so focused on “top end talent” you lose sight that it’s a team game. Michkov? He looks well on his way to being a “top end” scoring winger. Martone will be too. That’s two slots out of 20 on the team. I like the forwards but have written the D and goalies need to get better and the off season additions there are underwhelming. The Flyers have a #1 Dman in Sanheim, might have a #1 center in Zegras.
The real issue is that they picked in the top 5 once in the last seven drafts. Picking once in the top five in 7 drafts is not going to get you the players you need to win a Stanley Cup. Even when you factor in the gift that Michkov turned out to be. Having a deep team is a good thing. I think they will get there on that front. If you are fine with that then so be it. I am a firm believer that you need top level talent at C and D to win in this league.
I am willing to bet that both the Hawks and Sharks will be cup contenders a few years ahead of the Flyers. Hawks last made the playoffs in 2019-20 same as the Flyers. Sharks last made the playoffs in 2018-19. Both teams were more aggressive than the Flyers with the rebuild they executed.
I agree that incremental improvement is what you need when you are ready to start to compete. The Flyers are not ready to compete in my opinion. Until the Flyers get the high end (specifically #1 C and #1 D) talent they need competing for a playoff spot is counterproductive in my opinion. Teams do not trade out of the top 5 and teams do not let #1 C’s and D’s go in trade or FA.
Martone seems like he could be a piece. Michkov is here. What else are you seeing that will be near the level of Michkov? Surely nothing at center or D that could even be considered in that class.
So the Flyers should just deliberately tank until 2030. Sounds like a plan. You seem so focused on “top end talent” you lose sight that it’s a team game. Michkov? He looks well on his way to being a “top end” scoring winger. Martone will be too. That’s two slots out of 20 on the team. I like the forwards but have written the D and goalies need to get better and the off season additions there are underwhelming. The Flyers have a #1 Dman in Sanheim, might have a #1 center in Zegras.
