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I love that the Flyers are at the point where every roster, coaching, and front office move suddenly fits this description.
The living embodiment of the “hold my beer” meme?
So DB said some nice things about Torts on the way out? So what? Torts is not the coach any more. Again with the needle moving. More specifics please. This team is good for an extra 15 points this year. Roadkill Rick Tocchet will see to that. How is that a problem? How many points does a team need to improve to move their needle? What’s more important: Needle moving or difference making?
Never said Tocchet was roadkill, I compared roadkill as an improvement to what Torts was doing. 15 points takes the Flyers from last in the division to making the playoffs (using last year’s numbers). Are you predicting the Flyers make the playoffs? That would also be more points than Vancouver had last year, do you view the Flyers as having a better roster than Vancouver?
I posted an article earlier which talked about Tocchet’s coaching history and reasons for concern which came to the conclusion that Tocchet being the catalyst you want him to be is more wishful thinking than proven track record. You never really addressed the points made in that article. Until you do, it sounds more like you want to believe rather than having an actual reason to believe.
Maybe he’ll prove everyone wrong and again he can’t do any worse than the last guy. He’s supposed to be a great communicator with the players which is a world of difference from the coach who would bench the captain of the team without telling him why.
“No, he’s not a power play regular or a 40-plus point player like he was in Buffalo. He won’t rank first or second in credited hits anymore among NHL defensemen. “
He’s being asked to do less. What he was traded to be, what he was extended to be, what the Flyers wanted him to be, that player doesn’t exist. The Flyers trying to salvage something from a player they overpaid for in both draft picks and 5 year contract is what this is. It’s not like they could bury him in the minors with that contract so at least they’ve extracted some value from him when he’s not in the hot tub.
What’s sad is that his best year in 4 years with the Flyers would still rank as his worst year with the Sabres.
I listed 16 horrible facts from last season. None of which is in dispute including the general consensus that Tocchet’s hiring is more wishful thinking by the Flyers and that’s all you got out of it?
Five of your horrible facts mention Torts specifically and a lot of the rest were a direct result of HIS tenure. THIS JUST IN: Torts is gone. How can anyone in their right mind claim Tocchet isn’t an upgrade over Torts? And I don’t care that Torts won a cup in 2004. A general consensus over what they think will happen and not what actually will happen? That’s all you got. Last season was last season. Even I’m saying Drysdale needs to clean it up on D or hope he can hold onto a 3rd pairing role and Brink will be pushed out by somebody bigger sooner rather than later. Do you disagree with that in terms of this coming season? Who else is the problem?
Does it bother you at all that despite all the “Torts facts”, DB said that he still preferred to bring Torts back if there had been any way possible and remains a strong Torts supporter through everything? This is not a franchise that’s learned one thing from it’s past mistakes.
I think Tocchet is an upgrade over Torts, I think roadkill is an upgrade over Torts so low bar. I doubt anyone would disagree with that but does he move the needle? I’m having trouble finding anyone who believes Tocchet moves the needle based on his track record.
Informed opinions are all any of us have, using all available information. Do I necessarily disagree with your evaluations of the individual players above? No, they seem reasonable but it’s also not seeing the forest for the trees. The Flyers can add more depth players until the cows come home and continue to turn over the bottom of the roster, it won’t change a thing with this franchise. The Flyers love “born to be a flyer” and quantity over quality. It’s easy mode for them.
Still no cornerstone players. A true franchise center affects the entire team, allowing every other center to slot further down the lineup, putting them in better situations, improving every line despite only being one player.. The same with the #1 defenseman. That’s why they are so valuable. That’s why the Flyers are overwhelmed, they have players that are being asked to be to much.
That was last year and that’s just off the top of my head but they showed you something?
Most of the forwards looked good to me and Sanheim, Risto and Seeler filled their roles well. Which forwards and Dmen looked especially bad to you?
I listed 16 horrible facts from last season. None of which is in dispute including the general consensus that Tocchet’s hiring is more wishful thinking by the Flyers and that’s all you got out of it?
This is an unserious franchise that hired unserious people to run it. The incompetence is being rebranded as an intentional plan. Get those butts in the seats.
The Flyers defensively, as a team, were ranked 29th overall. Scoring 24th overall. Puck possession in the toilet. The team quit on the coach. The coach quit on the team. The worst PP coach in the entire league was untouchable for years. The only way things would’ve been worse is if the Flyers didn’t walk away from it with a cornerstone #1C or #D for the future. Oh wait, they didn’t.
The Flyers had very little money in the offseason and DB still spent it. Can’t wait until the checkbook is more open next year.
Am i wrong on any of this?
Did 1 or 2 players not look quite as bad as some of the others, who gives a crap? Historically speaking, can you name a worse GM and/or coaching year?
no they get judged on an individual basis. not a package.
facts hurt for flyers fans. it is a fact they stink. how can one argue otherwsie.
Based on all publicly available information. Pedigree, traits, track record, projections, etc. The Flyers chose poorly. Is that future 100% written in stone? No, but for the love of god I wish some fans would have a basis of opinion that’s more than just wishful thinking.
“Remember how hard the Flyers/Comcast media pushed Torts “fictional” accountability and being “hard to play against” (old time Flyers hockey!). Get ready for the same, the savior has arrived, media push. Pushing Tocchet’s openness and accessibility just as hard as they promoted Torts combativeness and disregard for modern hockey with the same level of realistic analysis, none. Remember how much we were told the players loved Torts and to not look behind the curtain. Tocchet’s going to be promoted as the Dali Lama. They have a product to sell, it’s entertainment to make money, hockey is what happens during the commercials.”
I stopped following the Flyers Torts’ first two seasons. The franchise was clearly in the toilet. He kept the doors open, I suppose. That’s the best I can say about him. Watched last year and the team was still bad in most respects but there were players who showed something and I like the off season changes. Maybe if you had taken time away from the Flyers at their truly incompetent bottom, you wouldn’t be so bitter, angry and irrational. Pro tip: Zegras is going to deliver the goods and his presence in the Top 6 is going to help every line.
Pretty sure that was last year.
Coming off of 3 straight last place finishes in the PP (in the NHL record books).
Started the season shorthanded on defense due to dB/Torts refusal to call anyone up.
Everything related to Jett making/playing with the big club including the embarrassing 4 games he played out of 10 before getting sent down.
Record number of line shuffling at the beginning of the season that became an internet meme.
Torts crossing the line with York
DB supporting Torts by suspending York for Torts being out of line
The team quitting on Torts for the 2nd season in a row
Torts publicly trashing the team
DB publicly stating he wanted Torts back anyway (despite the team quitting on torts and torts quitting on the team).
Flyers ranking close to the bottom in just about every major metric.
DB’s big “get” Fedotov who he gave a 2 year way above market contract to, proving he belongs in the AHL, not the NHL.
No accountability for anyone in the FO or coaching staff until Torts forced the issue
Rocky Thompson
Player regression
Despite multiple 1st rnd draft picks and the horrible horrible season, not coming away from the draft with the top 3 pick.
National media stating the Tocchet hire is more wishful thinking than proven track record.That was last year and that’s just off the top of my head but they showed you something? I have a solid foundation and facts behind my opinions, yours tend to mostly be wishful thinking. You discount anything that disagrees with your preferred opinion.
How was that not rock bottom? Even DB who was the proud papa said it was rock bottom.Then, we have the actual facts of the matter. If you care more about results than intent, let’s just say Tocchet’s résumé isn’t as colorful.
Despite being an NHL head coach for nine seasons, Tocchet has only appeared in the playoffs twice, with just one series victory to his name (excluding the 2020 Qualifying Round). He might’ve won the Jack Adams Award in 2023–24, but he’s suffered the same fate behind the bench that the Flyers have as a team over the past decade-plus— being stuck in the murky middle.
Furthermore, most of the league’s bench bosses have had a tremendous single-season success as a head coach at some level. Whether it be in juniors, college, or a professional league, most of these guys have led a team the distance, or close to it. However, that’s not the case for Tocchet—it makes him an outlier. He won back-to-back Stanley Cups as a n assistant with the Pittsburgh Penguins, but that’s just not the same.
Tocchet’s teams haven’t been statistically dominant under the hood, either. He’s taken on tough jobs with the aforementioned Canucks, Arizona Coyotes, and Tampa Bay Lightning, but the Flyers won’t be much easier, will they?
At this stage, fans are left hoping Tocchet is the guy. There’s no hard evidence to say he is.
Remember how hard the Flyers/Comcast media pushed Torts “fictional” accountability and being “hard to play against” (old time Flyers hockey!). Get ready for the same, the savior has arrived, media push. Pushing Tocchet’s openness and accessibility just as hard as they promoted Torts combativeness and disregard for modern hockey with the same level of realistic analysis, none. Remember how much we were told the players loved Torts and to not look behind the curtain. Tocchet’s going to be promoted as the Dali Lama.
They have a product to sell, it’s entertainment to make money, hockey is what happens during the commercials.
Hahahaha! I’m not discounting Buium. He may prove to be a great fit in MIN but you’re trashing the team over them selecting Luchanko over Buium when neither has proved anything in the pros . .. oh wait, Luchanko was pretty good in the playoffs for LHV. They were both drafted high enough, they should both have a 90% chance of being NHL regulars. We already have the Buium type Dman here and I would rather have a center than a duplicate of that. This is not complicated.
I am not discounting Luchanko as a player, just as the BPA when the Flyers drafted. Buium was a consensus steal at a position of critical need, outside of the Flyers war room. They even traded out of their spot to avoid taking him. This has the making of when the Eagles selected Reagor over Justin Jefferson because Raegor was a better fit despite JJ being the consensus better talent. Roseman publicly admitted that after that embarrassing screwup he switched from drafting for fit to BPA and it’s worked out pretty well for him. God forbid the Flyers learn anything from the Eagles.
Jett playing in a few AHL playoff games has no bearing on his NHL potential or career. Hopefully he has improved from the shitshow he was when they tried to force him onto the roster last year. The Flyers need him to pan out but even if he does. When does the actual rebuild start? Still no #1 Center, #1 D, #1 goalie. Rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
Size matters but exceptional players are exceptions. Is Bobby Brink an exceptional player? I don’t think he is. The center situation is a little better this year and a man deeper with Luchanko if he can pull it off. If not, they might have to scramble at 4C if there’s a long injury or Tocchet just wants to work both Cates and Dvorak into the top 9. If Zegras gets back to a .7 or so PPG level, he’s your number one center. I think he can do a little better. The D still needs work. There are only so many guys in the league that are better than Sanheim. It’s not that long a list.
I highly doubt Brink is going to be an exceptional player. He’s also 5’8″. Buium (6′, 185), who you discount based on size/weight is not small by any measure. He is the same size/weight as other cup winning defensemen such as Makar and appears to have the traits and resume of an exceptional future player, Jett does not. Jett, who is smaller (5’11”) and lighter (180) has the resume a “born to be a flyer” player. Oh no, he fails every metric you declared for being hard to play against and yet you ignore it.
The coach-player relationship between Tippett and the fickle, irascible Tortorella took a downturn over the course of Tortorella’s final calendar year behind the Philadelphia bench. This was true of many Flyers players, not just Tippett. Few players were sorry to see “Torts” go.
Many media members defended Torts player interactions/relationships. York says hi. Over the years there were many discussions on whether players would or did avoid Philly because of Torts and we were assured that it was all overblown, the Players loved Torts. Torts was great! Since Torts declared he didn’t want to be responsible anymore for a poopy roster which he was main force in shaping, the media is like a jilted girl’s best friend telling her all the things she kept quiet about her ex so as not to offend her friend.
Torts was a disaster as a coach/triumvirate GM but he had Comcast shielding him before.
Entering the 2024-25 season, there were high hopes that Tippett could attain his first 30-plus goal season in the National Hockey League. He had job security, starting a new eight-year contract ($6.2 million average annual value). He turned 26 on February 16, and seemed primed for a career-best season.
Tortorella was sometimes to blame for this himself by sending mixed messages: “safe is death” and “I want my offensive players to be aggressive up the ice” until they made an ill-timed turnover or a bad puck support read that ended up in the Philadelphia net.
…
Mike Keenan needed the late EJ McGuire to “clean the blood off the walls” (McGuire’s own description), and Tortorella had Shaw do it. Tocchet will say what he feels he needs to be said to a player. However, he won’t do it in front of teammates and he won’t tell the media that today’s players are “young and dumb”.Tip is a one trick pony who needs the perfect situation to do well. He is a limited hockey player and may have already reached his ceiling, if so that contract was premature. Maybe DB should stop handing out 8 year contracts to limited players on a team that is years from contention. Not saying they shouldn’t have resigned Tip but much like Fletch, gave the player Term, Money, and clause.
Also as mentioned, Torts coaching was such a blessing. How can the Flyers hope to improve on that after the media ate it all up for 3 years? It must feel like you are finally free.
In your opinion are the Flyers hard to play against? Torts thought he built a hard to play against team. What is your definition for that cliche?
the real problem starts at the top with ownership. then trickles down layer by layer.
The almost nine year long Hextall/Fletcher catastrophe is over. That destroyed this team, no question. This is now. The team still has issues but it’s a ton better off than it was.
as I said the real problem starts at the top. the same top that is still in place when those 2 were the GM. that hasn’t changed. replaced scott with another dope who has no business running a sports team.
briere part of fletcher’s staff, no? the amount of felating that briere receives is pure entertainment.
a ton better. god I love flyers fans. most delusional uneducated fan out there.
Torts was the face of the rebuild across both Fletcher and Briere’s tenure until his act wore out, started a fight with York, and told the world the Flyers are fcked. Yet DB still wanted to run it back.
Yea it’s crazy how no matter what crazy thing Torts did, it was excused, old time hockey baby!. Hell now according to some fans the Flyers aren’t even tough to play against despite that being Torts motto for 3 years. These fans would never dare post that when Torts was here though.
It’s going to be the same with DB. In a couple of years.
Well, we don’t know what the next 4 years will bring for Tippett. The Hartnell comp is reasonable, because he did get great contracts here and his production did slack in spots. He took some heat for that too. He also had 2 30 goal and 5 20 goal seasons, was good in the 08 playoffs and great in 2010. You know, back in the days the Flyers usually made the playoffs and won rounds. Tippett is one of the least of my Flyers concerns.
Holmgren was the GM for the first few years of the salary cap era. He absolutely did not understand the salary cap and only retired after he traded away every asset and hamstrung the Flyers financially for the next 5 years but yea, they did win a few rounds pretending the salary cap didn’t exist. He was the college kid throwing a party at his parents house but all everyone remembers is the party and not the mess left behind.
https://hockeconomics.substack.com/p/philadelphia-flyers-20-worst-contracts
Edit : damn, they list the Briere contract as one of the worst in Flyers history. Go Holmgren!
McDavid isn’t a defenseman either. It was awesome how all those 170 pound FLA Dmen were able to contain McD though. It’ll be interesting to see how Buium fits in Minnesota. The Flyers already had Drysdale for that role, I know that was a bad return in a bad spot, and needed a center more. The draft is done. Luchanko might still make the team this year. The Flyers can still use another guy who can play center.
Never said he was. Your arguments are a bit all over the place. So do you not care about size of forwards now? Is it the size on defense that contained McDavid or was it the defense backchecking like demons? Backchecking is not dependent on being huge. The puck is at ice level for everyone. Does skill matter at all in your world or is everyone Nick Seeler in a 6′ 200lb frame? It seems your position seems to change depending on the post.
Luchanko will definately make the team this year. Ready or not. Look how bad he was last year and they still tried to force him onto the roster. If he didn’t poop the bed so bad he might’ve gotten his 10 games in at least. It’s not like he had a stellar training camp either.
The Flyers could use a franchise center, franchise dman, and franchise goalie. You still haven’t addressed how the Flyers are going to acquire those necessary pieces.
Imagine Sanheim only having to be your #2 or #3 dman. Imagine Coots as your #2 center and Luchanko as your #3 center. Imagine, because that’s the only place you see the Flyers as a good team.
6.25 mill/yr for the next 8 years and 4 years of NTC is definitely a problem if his ceiling is a 20 goal scorer. The problem isn’t the player, it’s the contract.
If Tippett can put up roughly the same type of numbers Hartnell did when he was here, that contract will be OK. Three seasons in, Tippett is a little ahead of Hartnell’s pace. Tippett will score closer to 30 than 20 this year.
I take it you aren’t discounting arguments by saying they are “hypothetical” any more because that’s just wishful thinking.
Also, Hartnell averaged 22 goals over his 7 year flyers career and was signed under yet another Flyers special contract which was considered particularly bad and was moved just 1 year into it’s 6 year term and subsequently had the last 2 years bought out. He had 2 good years out of 7, people forget the other 5.
So if you want to say he’s the next Hartnell, you might not be far off. Tippett’s already had 1 of 2 good years out of 7.
