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OOOOHHH 9/10 years they made it to game 7 in the second round for the first time…oooooohhh and their stars players were nowhere to be found in game 7. -fake
Florida is a bonafide, proven powerhouse. Defending Champs, soon to be Finalists three years in a row. You see what they’re doing to Carolina? Absolute destruction. Carolina will be lucky if they win a game at this pace. Just another piece of evidence this team needs to keep their best players and dispatch the passengers. The Leafs 1st line were not passengers. They scored every single GWG in the series versus the Panthers. But you’ve never been keen on following evidence.
So yes, the Leafs pushing that team to Game 7 (and Game 3 OT could have swung it in our direction too) is indeed impressive and evidence of improvement, albeit incremental and long over due.
The stars of this team cant get it together, this was probably the best version of them. Time for a change.
The stars on the team are fine. It’s the trash bottom-six, old ass defensive liability Tavares and garbage Rielly that need to be changed. If the Leafs dumped Rielly, Jarnkrok and Kampf, they’d have nearly 13 million to spend on better depth players. You could bet confidently with a solid, two-way, shut down 3rd line, this Leafs team, with all their star players intact, will go further in the playoffs.
You simply cannot have $40m locked up in 3 forwards who are very similar. You cant win that way. Its been proven. Time for change.
They actually aren’t similar. Matthews is an elite two-way sniper. Marner is a an elite two-way playmaker who kills penalties. Nylander is a one-dimensional scorer. You want change? Change the garbage players like Tavares and Rielly. The guys on the ice for the most goals against because they absolutely suck defensively. They give up 6 goals trying to score 5. Doesn’t add up.
No, what you can’t do is let your leading point producer (in his prime) walk away from the team for nothing in return. That is a proven way to lose. If you insist on getting rid of one the forwards, Marner stays, Nylander goes. Luckily, that doesn’t have to happen if they play their cards right in other areas.
The cap has never been higher and will continue to rise. If you’re pissy because the Leafs have to pay them so much more, maybe they wouldn’t if they weren’t stuck paying damn near 55% in taxes. Probably soon to be 60%. The Turkeys asked for Thanksgiving, now get familiar with the menu.
Unfortunately, Management screwed this team by trading away all their 1st rounder until 2028…so they cant even do a quick one year retool and get a nice prospect.
They are now stuck with having to try to get into the playoffs….so, let marner walk, move out morgan if you can, If JT will take $5m, sign him for 3 years. Build out the bottom 6, get a winger to play the top line and another quality D.Weren’t you the guy a few poorly written sentences ago repeatedly screaming change like a deranged lunatic? But you want Tavares back? The same Tavares that had ZERO points in 6 out 7 round 2 games and NONE in Game 5, 6 and 7 vs the Panthers? The same Tavares who led the team in even strength goals against?
You’re so blinded by the mirage of a “discount 5 AAV contract” but fail to see that whatever you “save” on Tavares won’t make up for his garbage play away from the puck that lose you a series. The level of discount Tavares would have to take to make up for the disaster he is defensively would have to be in 3 million AAV or less territory because you’d have to shift him to LW and have a REAL two-way center that can actually play defense in the 5+ AAV range just to break even.
So basically, Tavares would have to become Matt Duchene in Dallas at 3 AAV. And even that isn’t all that great because Duchene is on the ice for way more 5v5 goals against than he is for. His PP production keeps him marginally valuable but still negative overall. So even in THAT scenario, it still sucks. So, bye Tavares. Go enjoy Buffalo. I hear it’s a short drive from Oakville.
MArk hunter? LOL, What a joke.
Yes, laugh at probably one of the best damn eyes for Canadian junior hockey talent. It was a mistake to let him go. If you want to build a winner in the NHL, you better understand where to find the gems in the OHL and the CHL. Rare to find somebody better at it than Mark Hunter with the great teams his family has built in London year after year after year. The Leafs need a drafting wizard now more than ever with no 1st round picks and barely any prospects left to speak for. Worst case Ontario, this team gets blown up by idiot media personalities and dumbass fans who scream for the destruction of this team and the Leafs have a guy smart enough to know how to rebuild it through the draft. Best case, he can populate this team with cheap, young, OHL talent that can help this team get over the hump without having to pay through the nose in free agency or trades.
The cap is going up next year, that much is guaranteed. But the rumored increases beyond that were not set in stone, and are almost certainly not going to be as high as originally forecasted. Personally, I don’t want to find the Leafs in a cap-strapped situation like they were during the flat cap Covid era.
Not going to be anywhere near that era. It’ll stay up where they expect it.
And even if it doesn’t, there will be at least a dozen teams maxed out regardless. It’ll be a league problem, not a Leafs problem.
The only way they would ever be able to protect themselves against that situation in the future is to get the players to agree on % based contracts that go up or down depending on revenue.
For example, if a player is making 10% a year on a 100 million max cap, he makes 10 million. If the cap goes up to 110 million, he makes 11 million. If it goes down to 90, he makes 9 million. It would significantly change which players get the max 8 years.
I think that’s the point that everyone is trying to make. Rantanen JUST signed his extension for $12M, so that’s the benchmark. Everybody knew the cap was going up next year, and now there is even more uncertainty regarding the cap rising due to economic factors. So, if anything, Marner should have even less leverage as we might be back in a slow rising cap situation for the next few years.
The cap is going up. That’s not uncertain. It’s already been announced.
12 in Texas is not the same as 12 in Toronto.
There are basic calculators that do the math.
Marner can’t collect his signing bonus in Arizona or Long Island. That’s a big problem here.
I’m not plugged in to the TO media, so I don’t read many direct Marner quotes. So, as far as his desires go, I have no idea. I’m speculating and I think that’s all any of us can do.
I’ve never personally insulted Marner or any of the Core. I’ve leveled some valid criticisms at them, but I’m not invested enough to have strong personal feelings about any of these people. I’d like them to win and try harder (be harder to play against?), but I’m not jumping on the abuse bandwagon. When he’s old, retired, his kids grown, and he’s back home in TO(?), how will he be remembered? What regrets (if any) will he have when he looks in the mirror as a 72-year old man? That’s up to him to decide. If he resigns and stays, I will support him and root for him. If he leaves, then I will forget about him 10 minutes later. Well, maybe a couple days later – we’ll have to discuss it to death first. LOL.
And, like I said in the other blog thread, many folks are discounting just how fucking deep and good the Panthers are.
The Leafs media is a combination of idiots and vultures. They feed off this for views and clicks because that’s all they have left to grasp at. No different than garbage corporate legacy media that basically only the boomers watch. They also own the team so perhaps they think they can bully their way into making Marner do what they think he should do in attempt to win the PR battle so if he does walk away, the team can save itself the embarrassment by trying to make him the bad guy. There are former players like Rick Vaive, who didn’t win shit in Toronto as a Leaf, talking shit in the media. Fans piling on because they are in pain and not smart enough to think for themselves.
The Leafs won the division, won a round (against the hated but tough Senators) and took the defending Champs and seemingly the best team in the NHL to Game 7. Marner directly helped win 2 out of the 3 games they won, one of which was in an elimination game. This year was an obvious improvement. And these morons are acting like they were a draft lottery team and the whole thing needs to be blown to hell.
Fire Shanahan, bring back Mark Hunter.
I can’t wait until this core is broken up and the endless, pointless, and exhausting Marner vs Nylander argument is gone for good.
Can’t wait for the team to get significantly worse?
The Nylander vs. Marner debate occurs because the Leafs created this mess when they signed Tavares.
If they let Tavares walk and trade Rielly, they can change the core without losing their best players for nothing.
Blah blah blah pointless drivel -Cush
More garbage…
Overpaying ANY player for continuing to disappear in critical games is super problematic and the result of a mistake or multiple mistakes being made.
Nylander disappeared in critical games and is a disaster defensively. But your solution is to let the better player walk for nothing and keep the inferior player. Sounds like a plan excellently made for more 1st round exists.
Not taking advantage of an opportunity to try and correct one or more of those mistake because you made the same ones in the past is just plain stupid as fuck.
How dare you use a term like “stupid as fuck”. That’s highly offensive and not on the list of permissible PC vocabulary. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Leafs have an opportunity to try and start the repairs to the damage from these mistakes with Marner and JT.
The “mistake” was Tavares.
They should have started earlier with others (they never should have put themselves in that position either) but that’s in the past and you can’t change it now.
Yes, you could change it now. You could sign the better player and trade Nylander. Since you insist you can’t have both (which is wrong), they could retain Marner and trade Nylander. At least, in that scenario, they don’t lose a 100 point player FOR FUCKING NOTHING and can get assets in return for Nylander, which at this point, might be the biggest yield they could ever get for him.
I hope they will do the difficult but right thing but fear they will do the easy and wrong one.
Again.
They will do what they also do; the dumbest possible thing. And you will love it.
It’s not 100% that he’s gone, but if I was a gambling man, that is where the safe money would be. That Utah mountain air, low taxes, and anonymity is mighty enticing, along with $14m per and finally being “The Man(tm)”. Most signs point to a farewell.
We’re in agreement on replacing his production – they won’t, or at least not with this current crop of UFAs or realistically-available trade targets.
The Leafs are right fucked on this one.
Marner genuinely wants to stay in Toronto. If he didn’t, he’d already be in Carolina, making more money and still in the playoffs. He chose to stay.
Everybody says his family controls his life but they’re going to control him to go away from where they all live? Doesn’t add up.
Marner wants what he deserves, as every single player does even when they lie that they don’t, and he wants to stay with the Leafs.
Matthews is allowed to be overpaid and disappear. Nylander is allowed to be overpaid and disappear. Tavares was allowed to be overpaid disappear as long as he takes a “discount” on his next deal.
But Marner? He’s a weak, soft, crying, greedy bitch.
Overwhelming evidence shows most Leafs fans and media need a lobotomy including Rick Vaive who pretends he’s some kind of Cup winning playoff legend when he talks shit about Marner.
Marner is gone.
That’s not 100%.
It sucks. Love him or hate him, he’s gone.
Worse, the Leafs aren’t getting shit back. Maybe a pick if they do a sign and trade, but that extra year isn’t getting you a treasure haul.
So, instead of debating whether or not he may go, or should he go, or what should we pay him, it might be more productive to start wish-spending all that sexy cap space that is the consolation prize for mismanaging an elite player.
There is nobody out there that will actually want to leave their superior team (Florida UFAs) for less money who will provide better results. People can wish all they want, there isn’t anybody out there. And the people who REALLY want to wish need to start praying for McJesus.
Hey UG maybe you need a snickers?
Maybe you need a clue.
Pointless drivel
Blah blah blah. Waste of time.
So you refused to answer one poster repeatedly who asked a simple question and are doing the same when I ask what other team has a MM type player or even to tell me who Florida’s is. They don’t have one is the answer but you resort to “Willy was terrible in games 5-7” which has zero to do with my question and is nothing more than deflection and denial.
Reinhart. Answered it twice now but perhaps you might not be able to read all that well. Tkachuk, by the way, had 0 goals vs the Leafs. Is he a passenger now? Marner went tit for tat with Reinhart both offensively and defensively. Marner actually went beyond Reinhart because his play directly won his team 2 games. Reinhart didn’t even have one GWG in the series.
Perhaps you haven’t read all of what I wrote today – Nylander was defensively terrible in games just like Marner , nobody is denying that fact & in fact I said it already so why are you now telling me to repeat it and calling me dense? lol
Marner is not terrible defensively, the stats clearly show that.
Side note – yes Marner got 1 point (a pedestrian assist) in games 2-7 inclusive THIS YEAR, Nylander 0 – what a staggering difference.Both sucked and disappeared in games 5-7 THIS YEAR so not sure why you keep harping about it, especially when many including me have acknowledged it multiple times.
Stole the puck, primary assist on the GWG. It’s only pedestrian in your mind because it annihilates your garbage narrative. Marner had a GWG and a primary assist on the Game 6 game winner. Nylander had nothing. Your entire garbage argument is built on the lie that Marner disappears in elimination games, but when he showed up and Nylander did not, it some how doesn’t count or matter because Nylander’s hair is moist or something stupid.
It’s pointless to even try to have a balanced, rationale discussion with you because you make shit up, move goal posts, set your feet and stomp and cry when facts are presented to you.
It’s indeed pointless because you’re very bad with dealing with reality.
You may want to tone down the personal attacks, not sure what Mike’s stance is on all of what you have thrown out there today but it’s a bit much and childish to be honest.
You got back what you dished out. Don’t bitch about it now.
A couple of you are busy fighting about this, but this is the data behind it since the real core group started together with the Leafs in 2016.
Using 5v5 stats only in the playoffs –
Morgan Rielly is +14 (60F / 46A)
Mitch Marner is +13 (46F / 33A)
Auston Matthews is +8 (47F / 39A)
William Nylander is +1 (43F / 42A)
John Tavares is -8 (25F / 33A)In terms of G/60:
Marner: 2.54 F / 1.82 A
Rielly: 2.66 F / 1.99 A
Matthews: 2.52 F / 2.09 A
Nylander: 2.63 F / 2.57 A
Tavares: 2.01 F / 2.65 AIf you’re really getting into yet another Marner vs. Nylander argument – last year and 2019 were the only two playoff years that Nylander outperformed Marner in terms of his offensive output outweighing defensive liabilities.
But this really shouldn’t be about one vs the other. We know what they all bring to the table and we know what their liabilities are. Nylander will provide game breaking moments and Marner will provide more and sincerely better versatility.
The fact that in these playoffs Marner took elbows to the head, shots after the whistle and Nylander often just skated away and rarely to be seen in any of this answers the question as to whether Marner will deal with it.
But if Marner’s salary demands are in excess of $12m, the answer has to be no. If they sit in the same range as Nylander’s $11.5, you should try to figure out how to do it. Of course this also should note that if I were Mitch Marner and the entirety of Leaf Nation was booing me out of town, I’d go and make sure my new team beat the shit out of them when we played.
The Leafs are stuck between a rock and hard place.
But Marner is worth the 13 x 8. The first reason being he’s entering his prime and has been an 100 point per 82 game player for 5 years in a row. He also makes your #1 shooter, goal scorer, a better player both offensively and defensively. Additionally, that high price tag is simply the price of doing business in Toronto after what it costs him in taxes. And finally, who replaces Marner’s production on the UFA market or within the Leafs prospect system? The salary cap is going up by leaps and bounds for the next couple of years.
It’s a shitty price to pay but there simply is not a better option at the moment. Retain the asset, move forward accordingly. Trade Rielly, let Tavares walk.
This is absolutely laughable you sound like AA now, again I ask who is the Marner of Florida? The soft skilled winger who shrinks in games 5-7 and will be paid like a top 3 or 4 player in the league?
Nylander disappeared in Game 5, 6 and 7 this year. Keep repeating it because you’re dense. Reinhart and Marner were basically even but you’re too blind to see it.
The Leafs can afford to lose some of the offense that Marner brings (in the regular season and early games in playoff series) if they can get a more balanced roster with more grit and grind in them – Marner (nor Willy) is that player and neither ever will be.
More career points and playoff points than Nylander.
Asset management?
11M for a pure goal scoring winger who you can try to develop into a better defensive player and outside of this year is a clutch playoff performer who is locked in at 11M for 8 years is a far greater asset than a UFA winger who wants 13 M + and again has year over year not been able to deliver come late series games. Do you actually think Marner can overcome his faults as a Leaf if he got signed to an even bigger salary than he has just got? What progress has he shown to make you think that’s possible?
Nylander absolutely sucks defensively. If that hasn’t changed by now, it never will. He disappeared in Game 5, 6 and 7. Maybe it will sink in soon…probably not though…
Let’s not skip past Marner screaming at his bench to wake the fuck up with his dry hair while having a terrible game 5 and 7 himself – great leadership.
Oh, his hair was dry…oh no…what a sin. Nylander never has dry hair…
You’ve gone full retard by the way.
Islanders rumored to have permission to talk to Shanahan. I guess they saw a decade of failure and thought, “we need some of that here.”
Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Also, Kraken granted permission from Leafs to speak with Lambert. Can they take Savard instead?
Leafs trade Shanahan for the rights to Lou.
Full circle.
For starters I was talking about this years playoffs – a fact you just blasted by while moving your goalposts again but not surprising because it didn’t fit your narrative.
This years playoffs? You mean the one where Nylander disappeared in Game 5, 6 and 7 against the Panthers? Oh right, you want to be a little bitch about “moving goal posts” but will happily do it for Nylander because it fits YOUR narrative. Accusing others of what you do yourself. Big surprise here.
You also know I’m sure that Marner has a whopping 5 more playoff points than Nylander and has played 3 more career playoff games right? Now your talking about most playoff assists vs points and using that to say what that Marner is more valuable because he has 60 playoff assists? Nylander is 12th in all time playoff assists by the Leafs and tied for 5th (with Matthews) behind Clark, Sundin, Keon, Kennedy and Armstrong. What does any of this prove other than the fact both Marner and Nylander have had great careers as Leafs?
How many goals against has Nylander been on the ice in his playoff career? I’m going to guess a lot (57 EVGA, most since 2015/2016 among Leafs)
There isn’t much use in scoring if you’re giving up as many as you score.
What the biggest issue for many is with Marner is were in a series he gets his points it’s no secret it’s not games 5-7.
Nylander did not have a GWG or a single point in Game 5, 6 or 7. Marner showed up, Nylander didn’t.
Which one of those 2 wingers is going to be paid 11M next year and which one is going to want 13M or more? The Leafs can’t afford to keep both unless they are playing video games and in GM mode and paying 3.5M players 900 K.
Marner is the better player. Better off keeping both but if it was one or the other, Marner wins every time. He’s a complete player.
Maybe you should wake the fuck up and follow the conversation.
Maybe you should take a step back and fuck your own face.
You won’t get an argument on that point from me!
I have NEVER defended Willy’s defensive game and you have to kinda’ wonder if perhaps Marner goes and Willy moves to L1 if the Captain can impart some more defensive accountability on him by showing him how to do it and actually stepping up as a captain and telling him to do it (along with Berube of course).
Marner’s defensive game is fantastic – sometimes elite (when he doesn’t try to get too fancy) but again in the late series games over the years Willy has been much more dependable and able to deliver offensively than Marner (yes this year being the exception).
Willy at 11M is better than Marner at 13 or more to me from the position of you can only keep one of those 2 – which I firmly believe is the way the Leafs need to proceed.
While I would keep both Marner and Nylander, the Leafs would still be better off re-signing Marner and trading Nylander in terms of asset management.
The Leafs can’t afford to lose their leading scorer, 100 point, two-way player, for nothing. They have no picks, no elite prospects and no reasonable or logical UFAs to replace him. If the Leafs lose Marner, Matthews will be worse and the entire team will be worse.
