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Do you actually believe Marner would have stayed here for $12 million? He’d be $14.5-$15.
$7-$9 is nothing more than upper average now.
2001-03 was a different era without a cap.
It’s a pretty basic thing to factor. Star players essentially want $7+ million take home post taxation. Yes, other factors matter, but that one is huge.[/quote]
The era doesnt really matter….there was still money to be had for the big boys…and no one was flocking to florida….they simply werent winning.
I already said its a factor…but its not “the” factor….no one would be signing for less to play for the panthers if they werent a winning franchise the past 3 years.
Winning is still the driver for most players. Winning, weather, taxes, anonymity, family.Mitch was offered $13.5….he wasnt staying for any amount imo, his mind was already made…his ego cant handle playing in Toronto.
The average nhl salary in 2003 was $1.7m
Now its about $3.4mI just ran a forbes tax calculator for a single person in florida and Ontario at a $12m salary
Florida take home was $7.6m after taxes
Ontario take home was $6.4m after taxesNot sure how accurate it is…but only about $1.2m difference.
They sign matching $15M contracts, and share the C:-)
i just meant how much he signs for, if he signs a deal for say 17m, does AM get more a year later.
but I like your thinking
You have to wonder if this is going to make it harder for the Leafs to re-sign Matthews once his current contract is up. This new CBA will literally cost Matthews millions out of pocket.
If matthews keeps his disappearing act in playoff games 5 – 7….would we really want to resign him?
If in the next 4 years matthews hasnt led this team to a couple of cup finals..or even one cup finals and several 3rd round appearances…..Im ok to move on from him.Not sure how accurate it is…but only about $1.2m difference.
Bro, are you serious?!?! If your boss said to you “we’re making some changes and you’ll be taking home 15% less,” you’d just be cool with that?!?!
That’s $1.2M per year! On an 8 year contract, that’s almost $10M!!! Nobody can convince me that doesn’t give some teams a HUGE advantage.
You have to wonder if this is going to make it harder for the Leafs to re-sign Matthews once his current contract is up. This new CBA will literally cost Matthews millions out of pocket.
If matthews keeps his disappearing act in playoff games 5 – 7….would we really want to resign him?
If in the next 4 years matthews hasnt led this team to a couple of cup finals..or even one cup finals and several 3rd round appearances…..Im ok to move on from him.That is a valid point, Matthews needs to nut TF up.
If in the next 4 years matthews hasnt led this team to a couple of cup finals..or even one cup finals and several 3rd round appearances…..Im ok to move on from him.
yes of course. You keep him a Leaf forever if he wants to stay.
Washington would have been morons to trade Ovy because he didnt win a cup in 12 seasons.there is a handfull of players (in the league) you never move, and AM is one of them..imo
So whats next for the leafs?
Maybe a mid range bottom 6 player? Roslovic, Olofsson? maybe 1 to 2 year deals?
The era doesnt really matter….there was still money to be had for the big boys…and no one was flocking to florida….they simply werent winning.
I already said its a factor…but its not “the” factor….no one would be signing for less to play for the panthers if they werent a winning franchise the past 3 years.
Winning is still the driver for most players. Winning, weather, taxes, anonymity, family.Mitch was offered $13.5….he wasnt staying for any amount imo, his mind was already made…his ego cant handle playing in Toronto.
The average nhl salary in 2003 was $1.7m
Now its about $3.4mI just ran a forbes tax calculator for a single person in florida and Ontario at a $12m salary
Florida take home was $7.6m after taxes
Ontario take home was $6.4m after taxesNot sure how accurate it is…but only about $1.2m difference.
What numbers are you using?
Florida: $12 x 0.63 = $7.56
Ontario: $12 x 0.4647 = $5.58
You might want to relearn the calculator.
Florida taxation: 37%
Ontario taxation: 53.53%[
Bro, are you serious?!?! If your boss said to you “we’re making some changes and you’ll be taking home 15% less,” you’d just be cool with that?!?!
That’s $1.2M per year! On an 8 year contract, that’s almost $10M!!! Nobody can convince me that doesn’t give some teams a HUGE advantage.[/quote]
To us yes of course thats huge and in general its a lot money.
But if youre an FA who has already made $50m in his career…or more…taking home another $51.2m vs $60m might not be as huge of a loss if one team provided a better chance to win.
Unfortunately for the leafs, the team that provides more take home money is also the team the has a better chance to win.
Just not sure how accurate the forbes tax calculator is…so numbers could be differentBack in 2008 top players were making decent cash $7 -$9m (for that time)….no one was flocking to florida to play
In 2001 – 2003 top players were making $9 to $11.5m…..no one was flocking to florida to play.
Winning…changes everything.
Of course there are loop holes and tax breaks or lower taxes that players can take advantage of now to save money…of course that helps (along with weather)…not disputing that. But winning is the honey that attracts the bears and ants. If florida, tampa and dallas were garbage losing teams you think players would sign for less to play there?
Nope.
They take less, because they win….and they’ve built winning cultures…or even cultures that may be a “team first” culture. Which seems to be the exact opposite of what was built in Toronto.
Toronto got cocky and lazy….they thought everyone would want to play here cause its the “mecca of hockey”….so they seem to stop building a winning brand…they missed the boat and even homegrown talent got greedy or simply didnt want to stay and play.
But winning…can change that.
This notion that its all about taxes is BS…it helps….but so does winning and having a team first winning culture.And of course the league will never do anything help northern teams (except pittsburgh), for sure its all about the southern teams…need new fans.
Do you actually believe Marner would have stayed here for $12 million? He’d be $14.5-$15.
$7-$9 is nothing more than upper average now.
2001-03 was a different era without a cap.
It’s a pretty basic thing to factor. Star players essentially want $7+ million take home post taxation. Yes, other factors matter, but that one is huge.
I’d throw a giant hypothetical at this and it goes to the culture that was also being referenced (and don’t get me wrong – I agree that it’s easier to take “less” when you’re still making more – like a $10m between Toronto and Tampa is roughly $6.3m in take home in Tampa compared to about $4.7m in Toronto but there are deferrals and shelters and blah, blah, blah – but it makes a difference).
The hypothetical I always ask myself is what if they never signed Tavares – or if he REALLY had wanted to come home and settled at around $9m. The cap being flat was an unforeseen obstacle and it definitely hurt the team and that’s where the wheels definitely wobbled – but the year after they signed Tavares the cap rose by a predictable 3.6% ($2m) but the salaries of Marner and Matthews were $10.9 and $11.6 – in direct response to Tavares’ $11m. That year – and it was before the flat cap – we jettisoned Kapanen and Johnsson to ensure we had room for those contracts as well as giving away Connor Brown to get Ottawa to take Zaitsev. I have never really thought losing Kapanen or Johnsson was a big deal but I lament Brown a lot. Regardless of that rabbit hole I could spend tons of time exploring, the flat cap hurt – the following years would have (at a 3.5% increase year over year) offered additional cap space of $2.9m, $5.9m, $8m and $10.2m before this past season (which would have also fallen $9m short of that projected growth – it actually catches up in 2026-27’s projected $104m cap).
I only mention the flat cap numbers to note that the Leafs were affected by it – but it was only a part of the problem. If Marner made $9m and Matthews made $10.5m and Tavares made $9.5 – just, again, as a hypothetical – there’s $4.5m annually in overexpenditure, and you can see where I think the problem started. As soon as they overpaid Tavares, flat cap or not, they were up against it.
What numbers are you using?
Florida: $12 x 0.63 = $7.56
Ontario: $12 x 0.4647 = $5.58
You might want to relearn the calculator.
Florida taxation: 37%
Ontario taxation: 53.53%[/quote]Like I said, I used the forbes tax calculator…I simply entered the salary, single person and selected area.
As previously mentioned, “not sure how accurate it is”Also, you have the exchange rate as well. the USD goes much further here……for now.
yes of course. You keep him a Leaf forever if he wants to stay.
Washington would have been morons to trade Ovy because he didnt win a cup in 12 seasons.there is a handfull of players (in the league) you never move, and AM is one of them..imo[/quote]
Meh, Matthews is no OV.
If after 12 years, he still disappears in playoff games 5 – 7, Im ok with not paying $15 – $17m for him and moving on.Like I said, I used the forbes tax calculator…I simply entered the salary, single person and selected area.
As previously mentioned, “not sure how accurate it is”Also, you have the exchange rate as well. the USD goes much further here……for now.
This is why I’m saying we’re finally hitting that point when players are starting to care. Marner wants $7 million take home. At $12 mill he gets that in Vegas where he wouldn’t in Toronto. Fans seem to believe players care more about their cap hit than their earnings for some reason, do you care more about what you cost your employer than what you earn?
I’d throw a giant hypothetical at this and it goes to the culture that was also being referenced (and don’t get me wrong – I agree that it’s easier to take “less” when you’re still making more – like a $10m between Toronto and Tampa is roughly $6.3m in take home in Tampa compared to about $4.7m in Toronto but there are deferrals and shelters and blah, blah, blah – but it makes a difference).
The hypothetical I always ask myself is what if they never signed Tavares – or if he REALLY had wanted to come home and settled at around $9m. The cap being flat was an unforeseen obstacle and it definitely hurt the team and that’s where the wheels definitely wobbled – but the year after they signed Tavares the cap rose by a predictable 3.6% ($2m) but the salaries of Marner and Matthews were $10.9 and $11.6 – in direct response to Tavares’ $11m. That year – and it was before the flat cap – we jettisoned Kapanen and Johnsson to ensure we had room for those contracts as well as giving away Connor Brown to get Ottawa to take Zaitsev. I have never really thought losing Kapanen or Johnsson was a big deal but I lament Brown a lot. Regardless of that rabbit hole I could spend tons of time exploring, the flat cap hurt – the following years would have (at a 3.5% increase year over year) offered additional cap space of $2.9m, $5.9m, $8m and $10.2m before this past season (which would have also fallen $9m short of that projected growth – it actually catches up in 2026-27’s projected $104m cap).
I only mention the flat cap numbers to note that the Leafs were affected by it – but it was only a part of the problem. If Marner made $9m and Matthews made $10.5m and Tavares made $9.5 – just, again, as a hypothetical – there’s $4.5m annually in overexpenditure, and you can see where I think the problem started. As soon as they overpaid Tavares, flat cap or not, they were up against it.[/quote]
In the above hypothetical, you are letting the old GM of the leafs, Marner and Matthews off the hook. JT’s contract as an FA shouldnt have increased Marner and Matthews second contract as much as it apparently did. Even with JT as 11, neither matthews or marner were worth over 10 per….they simply hadnt won anything…granted neither did JT, but he was an FA and apparently turned down 13millies elsewhere.
Dubas just did a horrible job negotiating the contracts; Marner should have signed for 8, matthews 9.5 for the term they signed. The money they got should have come with an 8 year term. Then we wouldnt be in this situation now.
Willy was 7.4…reduced to 6.9 because he sat out.
Marner at 8
Matthews at 9.5I think the playoff results would have been different with the extra cap.
Ifs and butts…ah well.This is why I’m saying we’re finally hitting that point when players are starting to care. Marner wants $7 million take home. At $12 mill he gets that in Vegas where he wouldn’t in Toronto. Fans seem to believe players care more about their cap hit than their earnings for some reason, do you care more about what you cost your employer than what you earn?[/quote]
Of course this is true….players arent concerned about their cap….for the most part.
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